Read details of the explosive chat below:
PT:
A lot of people believe that between 1999 and 2007 when you left was a time that
a lot changed in Nigeria for the better. And people just keep saying that you
destroyed everything that you put in place with the successors you
enthroned.
Obasanjo:
But take Ngozi (Okonjo-Iweala), who worked for me. And who worked competently
for me. Because I know Ngozi’s weaknesses, but I know her strong points. Her
strong point is technical competence. But Ngozi needs to be led and to be
supervised. Now will you comment on Ngozi who worked for me as the same Ngozi
who worked for Jonathan? Will you? But it’s the same person.
PT:
At what point do you think she derailed if I may use that word?
Obasanjo:
No.
PT:
Is it at the point that you changed her – because you removed her as finance
minister. Was it at that point that she began to derail?
Obasanjo:
She derailed because….when Jonathan even said he wanted her, I said ‘I hope you
can manage her.’ And Ngozi herself sent me a text (and) I told her times have
changed.
PT:
But why did you change her? She was managing the economy very well for you. Why
did you now remove her suddenly?
Obasanjo:
I wrote it in that my book.
PT: It didn’t come out clearly enough?
PT: It didn’t come out clearly enough?
Obasanjo:It
must have come out. Maybe you haven’t read the book very well. I said I’ve
touched reform. I’ve touched almost everywhere except Ministry of Education and
Ministry of Foreign Affairs. So one day, I was in my office and the Head of
Service, Yayale (Ahmed), came in. He said ‘look, you are looking not happy, what
is the matter?’ I said I am worried about two ministries and the ministers who
can do the work I wanted to be done there in these two ministries are already
doing good work where they are. And he said ‘talk let me see.’ I said education
and foreign affairs. And he said ‘who are the ministers that you think can do
the job.’ I said Oby (Ezekwesili), Ngozi, and El-Rufai. He said ‘what is Oby
doing for you now?’ I said Oby is doing Solid Minerals. He said ‘Sir, in all
sincerity, I know you don’t like to rank ministries, but will you say Ministry
of Solid Minerals is as important as Ministry of Education.’ I said yes I don’t
rank ministries, they are all important. He said, ‘Can’t you take any of these
three to do education and then get somebody else to do solid minerals?’ So I
took Oby there. Now in the Ministry of Finance we had got debt relief, so I
could afford to take Ngozi to Foreign Affairs. That’s all. And then she had
Nenadi (Usman) who was the minister of state. She’s not a buffoon. And then,
which is also part of her weakness, she came to me and said, look, since it’s
Ministry of Foreign Affairs, she will like to take International Finance along
with it. I said talk to your sister with whom you are working and I don’t see
anything wrong with that provided you work out a relationship. But she didn’t
accord Nenadi the recognition and the consideration that was necessary. I then
said the ministry of International finance should go back to Finance and that
happened. She said she couldn’t act. She put in a letter of resignation. And she
had done that before, and before she could come and get people to come and beg,
I announced acceptance (of her resignation).
PT:
She once resigned before and she took it back?
Obasanjo:
Yes.
PT:
Which means you were always having disagreements…
Obasanjo:
No no no. I know her character.
PT:
So why did she resign the first time?
Obasanjo:
She just felt if she cannot have her way, with me…. If I am the one in charge,
then it has to be what I see as what is the best interest of the nation.
PT:
So even when she resigned, if you didn’t announce the acceptance she would have
come back. So all efforts to make her come back didn’t work?
Obasanjo:
No no no. Because I had announced.
PT:
In 1999, IBB supported you to become president…
Obasanjo:
(Cuts in) I said that.
PT:
Yes, you said that. And many even said he helped fund your campaign at the
time.
Obasanjo:
No.
PT:
You didn’t say that. You said he supported you. But in your book, you spoke of
how in 2011, you chose to support Jonathan…..because you called a South West PDP
meeting where Jonathan was endorsed, even when IBB had also indicated interest
in running. Why did you prefer to act that way?
Obasanjo:
I wrote in my book that this is the opportunity we have for a minority. And I’ve
said that. I’ve explained that. I’ve said that times without number. And we have
scaled that hurdle. Nobody in Nigeria today can say ‘oh, because I’m a minority
I cannot get there.’
PT:
So was he not angry with you that ‘look, I backed you in 1999?’
Obasanjo:
That’s not…What nonsense is that? Because you backed me I must back you? It
doesn’t matter who you are? And I don’t have consideration for Nigeria? It’s
consideration that you backed me? No, if that is the way you think then you are
short-sighted and myopic and stupid. And put that one. No Nigerian should think
that way. You backed me? And if you don’t back me others will back me. So
everybody who backed me that time, I must now come and say, look, when you want
anything, any office…. I don’t act like that.
PT:
It means that you were able to break the jinx of the problem of
minority.
Obasanjo:
It is necessary that we deal with that.
PT:
You said something very shocking in your book – that the presidency instructed
EFCC to remove a vital document in Gbenga Daniel’s file in their custody as a
way of getting the former governor off their hook.
Obasanjo:
No. The president knows about it but it was his chief of staff who gave the
instruction.
PT: With the consent of the then president?
PT: With the consent of the then president?
Obasanjo:
The president knows about it.
PT:
Now listen to what you wrote in page 81 of your book. “To fight corruption, the
leader needs absolute transparency, no skeleton in the cupboard, clean hands, a
clear mind, fear of God, and absolute honesty and integrity, submission to
scrupulous investigation. Search and enquiries are also good for a leader who
wants to lead by example.” Great message for any leader all over the world! This
is prescriptive. Now what do you say to those who keep linking you with
corruption during your own tenure, especially the unresolved Halliburton scam
for which some of your aides were arrested?
Obasanjo:
Look, anybody can make any allegation. Go and read the EFCC report on me. I’m
the only leader who has left office who has had, I said they should carry out
clinical… did you see that in the book? And if you haven’t seen that in the book
then you haven’t read the book. So what else do you want? (Ndudi) Elumelu
carried out a report. Did you see the report of the House and the action of the
House? What more do you want? So it doesn’t matter the allegation you make,
that’s entirely up to you. Halliburton, Bodunde (one of his aides) has been
taken to court twice and the court has dismissed the case. What more do you
want? The latest was the one Jonathan did. Just before he left, he took Bodunde
back to court. He was discharged and the case dismissed the first time. The
second time Jonathan took him to court and he was discharged again. So what do
you want?
PT:
You may not know about it, you may not have a hand in it, but it does appear,
especially from reports from US investigators that some officials of your
administration perhaps took bribe from Halliburton.
Obasanjo:
No no no! I don’t deny that. But not me! I don’t deny their reports about
Halliburton but not me. I don’t even know what Halliburton was doing here. So
what’s your problem? And EFCC looked into it. You read the report of EFCC
bordering on Halliburton.
PT:
The only gap is that people are wondering why you didn’t take steps to bring
those officials of your regime to book.
Obasanjo:
(Cuts in) There’s no gap. You can make any allegation. Now EFCC – you can count
number of people who are taken to court. I don’t take anybody to court, Mojeed.
And don’t annoy me. Now you have the system that takes them to court. I don’t
take anybody to court. Because if I have to be the one to say ‘take this one to
court,’ that will be witch- hunting. That’s not my job. My job is – set up the
system and if anybody in that system is not performing then look for somebody to
perform. So it doesn’t matter what allegation. If you read that report of EFCC,
one man was hired, and he went out with all sorts of spurious allegations and
EFCC took it one by one. Even Ribadu told me that when he gave that report,
because he didn’t give the report to me…I said, look, carry out a critical
investigation. I thought that was good. Then when he wrote his report, he gave
it to Yar’Adua. And he said Yar’Adua asked him, ‘You can’t find anything at
all?’ He brought Metropolitan Police here and he said whenever they are doing
investigation in the past, when they get somewhere they will say ‘oh, yes, some
people are interested.’ But this is the first time they had free hand to carry
out investigation. So what more do you want? And what I put there is what I
believe in. Has anybody working under me said to you that ‘oh, he asked me to
take bribe?
PT:
Thank you sir for granting us this opportunity to talk about your book. Some
people say it is selling like hot cake, I don’t know if it is true but that’s
what people say. How has it been? What has been the financial reward from
there?
Obasanjo:
The book was not written for financial reward. If it was written for financial
reward, now that…what do you call him… Kashamu had done the stupid things he
did, I would have sued him for damages and I would have got damages. But that’s
not what the book was written for. The book was written for my experience, my
understanding, my knowledge, and what you may call wisdom as a result of all
these, to put it for others to be able to learn or acquire knowledge. That’s
one. Two, it was also written to set the record right. One of the things that
people don’t know, people that I call arm chair presidents is that they don’t
know what goes in before decisions are made or what the man making decisions,
what leads him to making decisions.
Take
for instance the decision on privatising all refineries. I explained that what I
met were refineries that were not working, refineries that were given to an
amateur for repairs, for maintenance, what they call turn around maintenance to
the company of Emeka Offor – Chrome Group. Where has Emeka Offor maintained
refineries before? Where has he? That’s what we met. So the refineries were not
working. I called Shell. I said ‘come and help us, just run the refinery.’ Shell
was frank with me.
It
said that ‘we make our money from upstream, downstream is more of a service.
Two, your refineries are small. Port Harcourt is 60,000 barrels a day.
Refineries now go 300,000 barrels a day. Three, your refineries have not been
maintained well. Four, we don’t want to go into the corruption that is entailed
in all these’. I said ‘ok, come and help me run it’. They refused. Now when I
then saw people who agreed to take 51 percent equity in two of the refineries;
they did not promise to pay, they paid 750 million, I was dancing and I said
‘look, this is God sent.’ My successor came (and) they cancelled it and paid
them the money back. Those refineries today – you won’t get them because they’ve
become scrap.
PT:
They recently said that they are working again…
Obasanjo:
Who made them work? (laughs)